The recipe for freedom: break heads, beat vigorously and boil

In a response to the Law Lord’s recent ruling on the use of information gained by torture, Charles Clarke wrote in the Guardian:

[T]hey held that there is an “exclusionary” rule precluding the use of evidence obtained by torture. However, they held it was perfectly lawful for such information to be relied on operationally, and also by the home secretary in making executive decisions.

Clarke said, “I welcome the decision”. Or as the first draft no doubt put it, “I welcome the fact that my job is made easier by information given by a person who was in agony at the time.”

Maybe information used “operationally” to “thwart” recent terrorist attacks was obtained by torture and so “perfectly lawful”. Are our “freedoms” being bought with the suffering of others?

Craig Murray, the former UK’s ambassador to Uzbekistan, can tell you how such information is obtained. Was it obtained from “the woman who was raped with a broken bottle in both vagina and anus”? A woman so terribly violated that she “died after ten days of agony”? Or was it obtained from the “old man suspended by wrist shackles from the ceiling while his children were beaten to a pulp before his eyes”?

While ambassador, Murray warned the Foreign Office that information being passed to Western intelligence agencies from people tortured in Uzbek jails. It cost him his job.

Now, Murray is being told to hand back to the Foreign Office a series of telegrams, he had sent while ambassador, detailing the deep concerns he had about the use of information being supplied by Uzbek torturers.

He is also being told to return a letter from Sir Michael Wood, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s legal adviser, stating it was legal for the UK Government and security services to use information obtained by torture. This despite the memo having been largely quoted in The Times and the article still being available its website.

The Government are trying to suppress documents that show it was aware the Uzbek authorities extracted information from detainees using torture and that it deemed the use of that information as legal.

During General Election campaigning in his constituency, Jack Straw was asked:

Constituent: “This question is for Mr Straw; Have you ever read any
documents where the intelligence has been procured through torturous means?”

Jack Straw: “Not to the best of my knowledge… let me make this clear… that the British government does not support torture in any circumstances. Full stop. We do not support the obtaining of intelligence by torture, or its use.”

Straw said this despite Craig Murray’s assertions to him, in the telegrams the Foreign Office are now seeking to supress, in July 2004, that…

We receive intelligence obtained under torture from the Uzbek intelligence services, via the US. We should stop. It is bad information anyway. Tortured dupes are forced to sign up to confessions showing what the Uzbek government wants the US and UK to believe, that they and we are fighting the same war against terror.

…and…

I gather a recent London interdepartmental meeting considered the question and decided to continue to receive the material. This is morally, legally and practically wrong. It exposes as hypocritical our post Abu Ghraib pronouncements and fatally undermines our moral standing. It obviates my efforts to get the Uzbek government to stop torture they are fully aware our intelligence community laps up the results.

Straw said this in March this year:

One of the things that is done with intelligence that comes from liaison partners, obviously an assessment is made about its provenance.

Because it does not follow that if it is extracted under torture, it is automatically untrue. But there is a much higher probability of it being embellished.

But my last point… is a real area of moral hazard which is that if you do get a bit of information which seems to be completely credible, which may have been extracted through unacceptable practices, do you ignore it?

And my answer to that is, the moment at which it is put before you, you have to make an assessment about its credibility.

Because, just in terms of the moral calculus, [what] if we had been told through liaison partners that September 11 was going to happen, with all the details [of how the information was obtained].

Now, torture is completely unacceptable and [we would] query whether that was the reason why we got the information… but you cannot ignore it if the price of ignoring it is 3,000 people dead.

What a vertigo-inducing moral wilderness Straw exists in. It’s a place where “torture is completely unacceptable” except when it isn’t. I bet Jack would get rather upset if you violated one of his family members with a broken bottle. But women in Uzbekistan? Well, what are you going to do? It’s a real area of moral hazard.

If the country operated under his code of morality, it would burn to the ground overnight in a hurricane of murder and rape. Or maybe it wouldn’t. The vast majority of people are unable to perform the mental contortions that allow the likes of Straw and Clarke to view humanity as an abstract concept (”Of course, I can’t discuss specific cases”) and convert human lives into numbers. Most of us exist far above the low moral standards that it would seem high politics demand. Most of us are unable to supress the involuntary shudder at the thought of a man being boiled alive.

And Blair on the same issues is just plain ignorant, legally, morally, wilfully and pig:

I, I have absolutely no evidence to suggest that anything illegal has been happening here at all, and I’m not going to start ordering inquiries into this, that and the next thing when I’ve got no evidence to show whether this is right or not - and I honestly, and you know, it’s like all this stuff about camps in Europe or something - I don’t know, I’ve never heard of such a thing.

I can’t tell you whether such a thing exists - because, er - I don’t know.

Ladies and gentlemen, the edifying spectacle of the most powerful man in the country, giving us the “la la la, speak louder, can’t hear you” defence. Doesn’t read the papers, doesn’t want to know, and doesn’t care. The EU president doesn’t give a stuff about rumours of renditions and detention camps and torture in Europe because he’s got no evidence. As a committed Christian he’s willing to place a bet, without evidence, on the existence of an omnipotent being who runs the universe but not on the CIA flying people around the world so that abattoir states, sorry, liaison partners can put electrodes on their genitals.

On torture, Blair is more forthright once you’ve unravelled the despicable semantic contortions:

The Independent: Britain gives approval to torture, claims Amnesty
Blair… told MPs: “We do not agree with the use of torture.” Pressed over whether that was an absolute rule, Mr Blair added: “I mean absolute in this sense, that you say ‘Look, it is simply the civil liberties of the suspect, or simply the liberties of freedom from terrorism’. You have to balance those two things.” it is simply the civil liberties of the suspect, or simply the liberties of freedom from terrorism’. You have to balance those two things.

Translation: Torture away, boys. Our bomb-proof, bullet-proof, body-guarded, cossetted exemplar says women must die at the hands of monsters and perverts with broken bottles so that we can safely walk the streets. Who knows, you might be alive right now because some poor bastard was boiled alive in an Uzbek jail. Savour that pint tonight.

I sometimes think that Blair sees human rights not as a complex collection of laws and rules outlining the very lowest expectations of human behaviour that have evolved over hundreds of years, but as something else. A sausage, say. Under his logic, if you shave a couple of slices off that sausage, well, it still looks roughly like a sausage, doesn’t it? And you can keep slicing and slicing and it still looks vaguely like a sausage. A little nibble around the edges and it still has its basic sausage shape. But slowly, the sausage is being eaten, and The War Against Terror is so very, very hungry…

The policy of the Government on the issues of torture and extraordinary rendition is one of obfuscation, weasel words, moral “flexibility” and carefully worded statements that must be parsed equally carefully to spot the legal and moral loopholes. These documents show that we, at best, turn a blind eye to torture and at worst, in places like Uzbekistan where we gladly receive information gleaned under the most sickening of depravities, encourage it.

The documents the Goverment wishes to supress are reproduced here and I would urge you to do the same if you have your own website. This information belongs in the public domain. Your humanity - and your disgust - demand it.

More stuff here, here, here, here, here and here.

UPDATE: Excellent analysis piece at The Register.

****************************************

Letter #1

Confidential

FM Tashkent (Ambassador Craig Murray)

TO FCO, Cabinet Office, DFID, MODUK, OSCE Posts, Security Council Posts

16 September 02

SUBJECT: US/Uzbekistan: Promoting Terrorism

SUMMARY

US plays down human rights situation in Uzbekistan. A dangerous policy: increasing repression combined with poverty will promote Islamic terrorism. Support to Karimov regime a bankrupt and cynical policy.

DETAIL

The Economist of 7 September states: “Uzbekistan, in particular, has jailed many thousands of moderate Islamists, an excellent way of converting their families and friends to extremism.” The Economist also spoke of “the growing despotism of Mr Karimov” and judged that “the past year has seen a further deterioration of an already grim human rights record”. I agree.

Between 7,000 and 10,000 political and religious prisoners are currently detained, many after trials before kangaroo courts with no representation. Terrible torture is commonplace: the EU is currently considering a demarche over the terrible case of two Muslims tortured to death in jail apparently with boiling water. Two leading dissidents, Elena Urlaeva and Larissa Vdovna, were two weeks ago committed to a lunatic asylum, where they are being drugged, for demonstrating on human rights. Opposition political parties remain banned. There is no doubt that September 11 gave the pretext to crack down still harder on dissent under the guise of counter-terrorism.Yet on 8 September the US State Department certified that Uzbekistan was
improving in both human rights and democracy, thus fulfilling a constitutional requirement and allowing the continuing disbursement of $140 million of US aid to Uzbekistan this year. Human Rights Watch immediately published a commendably sober and balanced rebuttal of the State Department claim.

Again we are back in the area of the US accepting sham reform [a reference to my previous telegram on the economy]. In August media censorship was abolished, and theoretically there are independent media outlets, but in practice there is absolutely no criticism of President Karimov or the central government in any Uzbek media. State Department call this self-censorship: I am not sure that is a fair way to describe an unwillingness to experience the brutal methods of the security services.

Similarly, following US pressure when Karimov visited Washington, a human rights NGO has been permitted to register. This is an advance, but they have little impact given that no media are prepared to cover any of their activities or carry any of their statements.

The final improvement State quote is that in one case of murder of a prisoner the police involved have been prosecuted. That is an improvement, but again related to the Karimov visit and does not appear to presage a general change of policy. On the latest cases of torture deaths the Uzbeks have given the OSCE an incredible explanation, given the nature of the injuries, that the victims died in a fight between prisoners.

But allowing a single NGO, a token prosecution of police officers and a fake press freedom cannot possibly outweigh the huge scale of detentions, the torture and the secret executions. President Karimov has admitted to 100 executions a year but human rights groups believe there are more. Added to this, all opposition parties remain banned (the President got a 98% vote) and the Internet is strictly controlled. All Internet providers must go through a single government server and access is barred to many sites including all dissident and opposition sites and much international media (including, ironically, waronterrorism.com). This is in essence still a totalitarian state: there is far less freedom than still prevails, for example, in Mugabe’s Zimbabwe. A Movement for Democratic Change or any judicial independence would be impossible here.

Karimov is a dictator who is committed to neither political nor economic reform. The purpose of his regime is not the development of his country but the diversion of economic rent to his oligarchic supporters through government controls. As a senior Uzbek academic told me privately, there is more repression here now than in Brezhnev’s time. The US are trying to prop up Karimov economically and to justify this support they need to claim that a process of economic and political reform is underway. That they do so claim is either cynicism or self-delusion.

This policy is doomed to failure. Karimov is driving this resource-rich country towards economic ruin like an Abacha. And the policy of increasing repression aimed indiscriminately at pious Muslims, combined with a deepening poverty, is the most certain way to ensure continuing support for the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan. They have certainly been decimated and disorganised in Afghanistan, and Karimov’s repression may keep the lid on for years – but pressure is building and could ultimately explode.

I quite understand the interest of the US in strategic airbases and why they back Karimov, but I believe US policy is misconceived. In the short term it may help fight terrorism but in the medium term it will promote it, as the Economist points out. And it can never be right to lower our standards on human rights. There is a complex situation in Central Asia and it is wrong to look at it only through a prism picked up on September 12. Worst of all is what appears to be the philosophy underlying the current US view of Uzbekistan: that September 11 divided the World into two camps in the “War against Terrorism” and that Karimov is on “our” side.

If Karimov is on “our” side, then this war cannot be simply between the forces of good and evil. It must be about more complex things, like securing the long-term US military presence in Uzbekistan. I silently wept at the 11 September commemoration here. The right words on New York have all been said. But last week was also another anniversary – the US-led overthrow of Salvador Allende in Chile. The subsequent dictatorship killed, dare I say it, rather more people than died on September 11. Should we not remember then also, and learn from that too? I fear that we are heading down the same path of US-sponsored dictatorship here. It is ironic that the beneficiary is perhaps the most unreformed of the World’s old communist leaders.

We need to think much more deeply about Central Asia. It is easy to place Uzbekistan in the “too difficult” tray and let the US run with it, but I think they are running in the wrong direction. We should tell them of the dangers we see. Our policy is theoretically one of engagement, but in practice this has not meant much. Engagement makes sense, but it must mean grappling with the problems, not mute collaboration. We need to start actively to state a distinctive position on democracy and human rights, and press for a realistic view to be taken in the IMF. We should continue to
resist pressures to start a bilateral DFID programme, unless channelled non-governmentally, and not restore ECGD cover despite the constant lobbying. We should not invite Karimov to the UK. We should step up our public diplomacy effort, stressing democratic values, including more resources from the British Council. We should increase support to human rights activists, and strive for contact with non-official Islamic groups.

Above all we need to care about the 22 million Uzbek people, suffering from poverty and lack of freedom. They are not just pawns in the new Great Game.

MURRAY

—————————————

Letter #2

Confidential

Fm Tashkent (Ambassador Craig Murray)

To FCO

18 March 2003

SUBJECT: US FOREIGN POLICY

SUMMARY

1. As seen from Tashkent, US policy is not much focussed on democracy or freedom. It is about oil, gas and hegemony. In Uzbekistan the US pursues those ends through supporting a ruthless dictatorship. We must not close our eyes to uncomfortable truth.

DETAIL

2. Last year the US gave half a billion dollars in aid to Uzbekistan, about a quarter of it military aid. Bush and Powell repeatedly hail Karimov as a friend and ally. Yet this regime has at least seven thousand prisoners of conscience; it is a one party state without freedom of speech, without freedom of media, without freedom of movement, without freedom of assembly, without freedom of religion. It practices, systematically, the most hideous tortures on thousands. Most of the population live in conditions precisely analogous with medieval serfdom.

3. Uzbekistan’s geo-strategic position is crucial. It has half the population of the whole of Central Asia. It alone borders all the other states in a region which is important to future Western oil and gas supplies. It is the regional military power. That is why the US is here, and here to stay. Contractors at the US military bases are extending the design life of the buildings from ten to twenty five years.

4. Democracy and human rights are, despite their protestations to the contrary, in practice a long way down the US agenda here. Aid this year will be slightly less, but there is no intention to introduce any meaningful conditionality. Nobody can believe this level of aid – more than US aid to all of West Africa – is related to comparative developmental need as opposed to political support for Karimov. While the US makes token and low-level references to human rights to appease domestic opinion, they view Karimov’s vicious regime as a bastion against fundamentalism. He – and they – are in fact creating fundamentalism. When the US gives this much support to a regime that tortures people to death for having a beard or praying five times a day, is it any surprise that Muslims come to hate the West?

5. I was stunned to hear that the US had pressured the EU to withdraw a motion on Human Rights in Uzbekistan which the EU was tabling at the UN Commission for Human Rights in Geneva. I was most unhappy to find that we are helping the US in what I can only call this cover-up. I am saddened when the US constantly quote fake improvements in human rights in Uzbekistan, such as the abolition of censorship and Internet freedom, which quite simply have not happened (I see these are quoted in the draft EBRD strategy for Uzbekistan, again I understand at American urging).

6. From Tashkent it is difficult to agree that we and the US are activated by shared values. Here we have a brutal US sponsored dictatorship reminiscent of Central and South American policy under previous US Republican administrations. I watched George Bush talk today of Iraq and “dismantling the apparatus of terror… removing the torture chambers and the rape rooms”. Yet when it comes to the Karimov regime, systematic torture and rape appear to be treated as peccadilloes, not to affect the relationship and to be downplayed in international fora. Double standards? Yes.

7. I hope that once the present crisis is over we will make plain to the US, at senior level, our serious concern over their policy in Uzbekistan.

MURRAY

—————————————-

[Transcript of facsimile sent 25 March 2003 from the Foreign Office]

From: Michael Wood, Legal Advisor

Date: 13 March 2003

CC: PS/PUS; Matthew Kidd, WLD

Linda Duffield

UZBEKISTAN: INTELLIGENCE POSSIBLY OBTAINED UNDER TORTURE

1. Your record of our meeting with HMA Tashkent recorded that Craig had said that his understanding was that it was also an offence under the UN Convention on Torture to receive or possess information under torture. I said that I did not believe that this was the case, but undertook to re-read the Convention.

2. I have done so. There is nothing in the Convention to this effect. The
nearest thing is article 15 which provides:

“Each State Party shall ensure that any statement which is established to have been made as a result of torture shall not be invoked as evidence in any proceedings, except against a person accused of torture as evidence that the statement was made.”

3. This does not create any offence. I would expect that under UK law any statement established to have been made as a result of torture would not be admissible as evidence.

[signed]

M C Wood
Legal Adviser

———————————————————————————

Letter #3

CONFIDENTIAL

FM TASHKENT (Ambassador Craig Murray)

TO IMMEDIATE FCO

TELNO 63
OF 220939 JULY 04

INFO IMMEDIATE DFID, ISLAMIC POSTS, MOD, OSCE POSTS UKDEL EBRD LONDON, UKMIS GENEVA, UKMIS MEW YORK

SUBJECT: RECEIPT OF INTELLIGENCE OBTAINED UNDER TORTURE

SUMMARY

1. We receive intelligence obtained under torture from the Uzbek intelligence services, via the US. We should stop. It is bad information anyway. Tortured dupes are forced to sign up to confessions showing what the Uzbek government wants the US and UK to believe, that they and we are fighting the same war against terror.

2. I gather a recent London interdepartmental meeting considered the question and decided to continue to receive the material. This is morally, legally and practically wrong. It exposes as hypocritical our post Abu Ghraib pronouncements and fatally undermines our moral standing. It obviates my efforts to get the Uzbek government to stop torture they are fully aware our intelligence community laps up the results.

3. We should cease all co-operation with the Uzbek Security Services they are beyond the pale. We indeed need to establish an SIS presence here, but not as in a friendly state.

DETAIL

4. In the period December 2002 to March 2003 I raised several times the issue of intelligence material from the Uzbek security services which was obtained under torture and passed to us via the CIA. I queried the legality, efficacy and morality of the practice.

5. I was summoned to the UK for a meeting on 8 March 2003. Michael Wood gave his legal opinion that it was not illegal to obtain and to use intelligence acquired by torture. He said the only legal limitation on its use was that it could not be used in legal proceedings, under Article 15 of the UN Convention on Torture.

6. On behalf of the intelligence services, Matthew Kydd said that they found some of the material very useful indeed with a direct bearing on the war on terror. Linda Duffield said that she had been asked to assure me that my qualms of conscience were respected and understood.

7. Sir Michael Jay’s circular of 26 May stated that there was a reporting obligation on us to report torture by allies (and I have been instructed to refer to Uzbekistan as such in the context of the war on terror). You, Sir, have made a number of striking, and I believe heartfelt, condemnations of torture in the last few weeks. I had in the light of this decided to return to this question and to highlight an apparent contradiction in our policy. I had intimated as much to the Head of Eastern Department.

8. I was therefore somewhat surprised to hear that without informing me of the meeting, or since informing me of the result of the meeting, a meeting was convened in the FCO at the level of Heads of Department and above, precisely to consider the question of the receipt of Uzbek intelligence material obtained under torture. As the office knew, I was in London at the time and perfectly able to attend the meeting. I still have only gleaned that it happened.

9. I understand that the meeting decided to continue to obtain the Uzbek torture material. I understand that the principal argument deployed was that the intelligence material disguises the precise source, ie it does not ordinarily reveal the name of the individual who is tortured. Indeed this is true – the material is marked with a euphemism such as “From detainee debriefing.” The argument runs that if the individual is not named, we cannot prove that he was tortured.

10. I will not attempt to hide my utter contempt for such casuistry, nor my shame that I work in and organisation where colleagues would resort to it to justify torture. I have dealt with hundreds of individual cases of political or religious prisoners in Uzbekistan, and I have met with very few where torture, as defined in the UN convention, was not employed. When my then DHM raised the question with the CIA head of station 15 months ago, he readily acknowledged torture was deployed in obtaining intelligence. I do not think there is any doubt as to the fact

11. The torture record of the Uzbek security services could hardly be more widely known. Plainly there are, at the very least, reasonable grounds for believing the material is obtained under torture. There is helpful guidance at Article 3 of the UN Convention;

“The competent authorities shall take into account all relevant considerations including, where applicable, the existence in the state concerned of a consistent pattern of gross, flagrant or mass violations of human rights.”

While this article forbids extradition or deportation to Uzbekistan, it is the right test for the present question also.

12. On the usefulness of the material obtained, this is irrelevant. Article 2 of the Convention, to which we are a party, could not be plainer:

“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”

13. Nonetheless, I repeat that this material is useless – we are selling our souls for dross. It is in fact positively harmful. It is designed to give the message the Uzbeks want the West to hear. It exaggerates the role, size, organisation and activity of the IMU and its links with Al Qaida. The aim is to convince the West that the Uzbeks are a vital cog against a common foe, that they should keep the assistance, especially military assistance, coming, and that they should mute the international criticism on human rights and economic reform.

14. I was taken aback when Matthew Kydd said this stuff was valuable. Sixteen months ago it was difficult to argue with SIS in the area of intelligence assessment. But post Butler we know, not only that they can get it wrong on even the most vital and high profile issues, but that they have a particular yen for highly coloured material which exaggerates the threat.

That is precisely what the Uzbeks give them. Furthermore MI6 have no operative within a thousand miles of me and certainly no expertise that can come close to my own in making this assessment.

15. At the Khuderbegainov trial I met an old man from Andizhan. Two of his children had been tortured in front of him until he signed a confession on the family’s links with Bin Laden. Tears were streaming down his face. I have no doubt they had as much connection with Bin Laden as I do. This is the standard of the Uzbek intelligence services.

16. I have been considering Michael Wood’s legal view, which he kindly gave in writing. I cannot understand why Michael concentrated only on Article 15 of the Convention. This certainly bans the use of material obtained under torture as evidence in proceedings, but it does not state that this is the sole exclusion of the use of such material.

17. The relevant article seems to me Article 4, which talks of complicity in torture. Knowingly to receive its results appears to be at least arguable as complicity. It does not appear that being in a different country to the actual torture would preclude complicity. I talked this over in a hypothetical sense with my old friend Prof Francois Hampson, I believe an acknowledged World authority on the Convention, who said that the complicity argument and the spirit of the Convention would be likely to be winning points. I should be grateful to hear Michael’s views on this.

18. It seems to me that there are degrees of complicity and guilt, but being at one or two removes does not make us blameless. There are other factors. Plainly it was a breach of Article 3 of the Convention for the coalition to deport detainees back here from Baghram, but it has been done. That seems plainly complicit.

19. This is a difficult and dangerous part of the World. Dire and increasing poverty and harsh repression are undoubtedly turning young people here towards radical Islam. The Uzbek government are thus creating this threat, and perceived US support for Karimov strengthens anti-Western feeling. SIS ought to establish a presence here, but not as partners of the Uzbek Security Services, whose sheer brutality puts them beyond the pale.

MURRAY


Posted on December 29th, 2005 at 5:34 pm

See also
The torturous road to freedom
Poisoned Chalice
Craig Murray: Hazel Blears made a claim to MPs I know to be false
   
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8 Comments

  1. Paddy Carter on 30.12.2005 at 12:43 Permalink | Reply

    Hello Justin,

    I hope your christmas was merry.

    As you know, I think I’m on your side of this issue, but I still think that here you are not giving proper credit to the counter arguments.

    Maybe information used “operationally” to “thwart” recent terrorist attacks was obtained by torture and so “perfectly lawful”. Are our “freedoms” being bought with the suffering of others?

    Well if terrorist attacks have been thwarted using information obtained by torture, it’s not our ‘freedoms’ that have been bought is it? It’s lives that have been saved - people who were not blown to smithereens by nail bombs that would have been - this is (perhaps) what has been bought with the suffering of others. Others who were involved in planning to blow people up.

    You are rightly horrified at the thought of people being tortured, but surely you are equally horrified at the thought of people being blown to bits on buses. If more attacks on London really have been thwarted - doesn’t that make you think twice about all this?

    If you think that torture is sometimes justifiable, this is precisely the circumstances in which it is justifiable - to thwart terrorist attacks and save lives. But you’re argument seems to just dismiss this possibilty out of hand.

    I think you have to acknowledge that a decision to not ever use information obtained under torture might well result in some people being blown to bits that could have been saved. You have to acknowledge that and still show that making any sort of accomodation with torture is - on balance - wrong.

    What a vertigo-inducing moral wilderness Straw exists in. It’s a place where “torture is completely unacceptable” except when it isn’t. I bet Jack would get rather upset if you violated one of his family members with a broken bottle. But women in Uzbekistan? Well, what are you going to do? It’s a real area of moral hazard.

    It’s not a moral wilderness, it’s a moral quagmire and it’s the same one that we all occupy, I think, on all sides of the debate. Because both sides involve people getting tortured or not, blown up or not, and it’s a matter of picking this least horrible moral compromise.

    Jack Straw’s “except when it isn’t” is (I hope) “except when it might save lives” and you can flip the argument around and ask what sort of moral wilderness those who oppose any use of information obtained under torture [you & perhaps me] live in, when they advocate a policy that would not save lives where lives might have been saved. People blown to bits on buses? What are you gonna do?

    Although you never state it, your argument implies (I think) that innocent people being tortured is reality (and I don’t dispute that) but that the terrorist threat, and the possibilty of the security services using information obtained under torture being able to thwart it, is an invention. I’d like to see you expand on that point.

  2. Friendly Fire on 30.12.2005 at 15:08 Permalink | Reply

    Woooo, an intellectual troll has paid Justin a visit.

    I like the way he is called “Paddy”.

    Paddy, have you ever heard of “diplomacy” and “human rights”?

  3. David Duff on 30.12.2005 at 16:56 Permalink | Reply

    ‘Paddy’ Carter will have to undergo a name-transplant if he is not to receive the sort of flak that hit me because of my use of diminutives. On second thoughts, ‘Paddy’, don’t bother, ‘friendly fire’(ff) is obviously a very ‘non-intellectual troll’. He talks of “diplomacy”, forgetting perhaps the old definition of a diplomat as some-one sent abroad to lie for their country; and his peculiar notion of “human rights” does not, alas, extend to people on London buses!

    People like ‘ff’ and our genial host don’t actually have a country of their own. They inhabit a sort of Never-Never Land of fairy tales and myths peopled entirely by good-natured folk who would never dream of harming a hair on their heads. Their metaphorical grandfathers probably voted never to fight for king and country at the Cambridge Union in the 1930s.

    In the meantime, they no doubt expect our MI6 officers serving in ‘Gangsterland’, ie, most of the rest of the world, to jam their fingers in their ears and shout loudly “RAH RAH RAH RAH” to stop themselves from hearing any titbits of information lest they were obtained by means considered objectionable by Amnesty International.

    There are times when I wish the Islamo-fascists would succeed in over-running the West just for my joy at seeing the likes of ‘ff’ receiving a dose of what they’re too feeble to fight against.

  4. Paddy Carter on 30.12.2005 at 19:17 Permalink | Reply

    ff. ‘intellectual troll’ - you flatter

    I like the way I’m called Paddy too.

    David, I suspect the only point that you and I agree on is the wisdom of commenting under an assumed name.

    I’m against any use of information obtained by torture, and sending suspects to regimes that torture, because I think that any attempt to implement an “only as a last resort to save lives” rule isn’t going to work, and plenty of innocent people would end up being tortured and few lives saved as a result. I believe that actual instances where torturing somebody would be the only way to save lives are rare, but God knows why I think I know that. But I think it’s a pretty finely balanced issue, and even though I’m against it, I think wanting a “torture only in exceptional circumstances” rule is understandable and, arguably, moral. If life was like an episode of 24 and Keifer has the guy in front of him who knows where the nuclear bomb hidden in downtown LA is, but who isn’t gonna talk, then I’d think again. Perhaps life is more like that than I imagine. David, you think so, I assume. I reckon the reality is more usually the secret services (in whatever country we are either sending suspects to or receiving information from) end up pulling in the wrong guy then pulling his finger nails out.

    Does anybody claim that those poor buggers pulled apart in an Uzbek cellar were in possession of the sort of information that could ever justify what was done to them?

  5. David Duff on 30.12.2005 at 22:19 Permalink | Reply

    Perhaps you were being ironic, Paddy, but I only ever write under my own, true name, in the finest tradition of the dear old ‘Duke of Boot’, “Publish and be damned!”

    I share your doubts concerning the efficiency of our security services. Nevertheless, on the domestic scene we have stumbled into a bugger’s muddle over the treatment of suspected terrorists by allowing the authorities to make it up, in secret, as they go along. In the USA they have the semi-secret Guantanamo, and over here we have Sir Ian Blair’s secret policy of shoot to kill.

    However, we also have our police saddled with nonsensical rules of interrogation loaded in favour of the recalcitrant prisoners and the fee-seeking lawyers behind them.

    I am not in favour of torture except in the one in a million chance of a ticking bomb scenario which never occurs outside of film studios. However, I am in favour of harsh treatment, that is, treatment from which a healthy man or woman would recover within hours, if not minutes of its cessation, administered to terrorist suspects in order to elicit information. None of it should be used in a court of law.

    This war will be won or lost on intelligence. It is time the British (and American) public were engaged in a debate on the methods to be adopted in dealing with terrorist suspects so that a clear policy can be put in place.

  6. Friendly Fire on 31.12.2005 at 17:00 Permalink | Reply

    Message to “Paddy Duff”

    I am not in favour of torture except in the one in a million chance of a ticking bomb scenario which never occurs outside of film studios.

    So you will torture a million for the one chance it will be successful?

  7. ejh on 31.12.2005 at 19:28 Permalink | Reply

    It’s a measure of how much prominence this story is being given by the media that, having been away over Xmas, but seeing the mainstream British and Spanish media nevertheless, I was completely unaware of this story until being pointed towards this blog by Lenin’s Tomb when I got home.

    The truth always outs in the end. The question that always needs asking though, whenever that day comes, is “why did it take so long?”.

  8. Bloggerheads on 29.03.2006 at 10:13

    Hot Water…

    Don’t you find it a little odd that Mary Creagh, the Labour MP who is worried that we all might burn ourselves has never formally objected to a government that approves of boiling people alive? Perhaps she thinks that if……

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