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	<title>Comments on: Ignorance really is bliss</title>
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	<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/</link>
	<description>The weblog of Brighton-based writer Justin McKeating</description>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-34013</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 08:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-34013</guid>
		<description>Daniel - That abusive comment conveniently evades the issue of contention here but then you knew that, I&#039;m sure. Curiously, in today&#039;s news, even Ed Balls agrees that schools are failing to nurture talents, which is hopefully reassuring in its way if it means that reforms are really on their way:

&quot;Ed Balls, the Schools Secretary, admitted yesterday that EnglandÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s state education system was failing too many young people as he pledged a new drive to raise standards. 

&quot;A decade after Labour took office, he told the partyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s conference that it was not good enough for one in five children to enter secondary school unable to meet the required level of English. 

&quot;Children from poorer homes were still only half as likely to get five good passes in GCSE exams, even though results were rising faster among pupils entitled to free school meals, he said.&quot;
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article2540096.ece

Btw do see this sad news report about local education authorities in Wales:

&quot;Two-thirds of Wales&#039;s local authorities are not spending enough on education, according to a teachers&#039; union. The National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) said its research shows spending by 14 of the 22 councils is below expected budget levels.&quot; 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7012744.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel &#8211; That abusive comment conveniently evades the issue of contention here but then you knew that, I&#8217;m sure. Curiously, in today&#8217;s news, even Ed Balls agrees that schools are failing to nurture talents, which is hopefully reassuring in its way if it means that reforms are really on their way:</p>
<p>&#8220;Ed Balls, the Schools Secretary, admitted yesterday that EnglandÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s state education system was failing too many young people as he pledged a new drive to raise standards. </p>
<p>&#8220;A decade after Labour took office, he told the partyÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s conference that it was not good enough for one in five children to enter secondary school unable to meet the required level of English. </p>
<p>&#8220;Children from poorer homes were still only half as likely to get five good passes in GCSE exams, even though results were rising faster among pupils entitled to free school meals, he said.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article2540096.ece">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/school_league_tables/article2540096.ece</a></p>
<p>Btw do see this sad news report about local education authorities in Wales:</p>
<p>&#8220;Two-thirds of Wales&#8217;s local authorities are not spending enough on education, according to a teachers&#8217; union. The National Association of Head Teachers (NAHT) said its research shows spending by 14 of the 22 councils is below expected budget levels.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7012744.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7012744.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-34008</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 23:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>No offence Bob, but being told by you that you don&#039;t understand what I&#039;m on about - particularly when you follow that comment with four seemingly randomly selected news stories, as usual - is a bit like being called fat by Alisher Usmanov.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No offence Bob, but being told by you that you don&#8217;t understand what I&#8217;m on about &#8211; particularly when you follow that comment with four seemingly randomly selected news stories, as usual &#8211; is a bit like being called fat by Alisher Usmanov.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-34001</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-34001</guid>
		<description>I really don&#039;t understand what dsquared is on about.

As Tony Blair said back in 2005, &quot;More than one million people on incapacity benefit wanted to work.&quot;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224721.stm

The problem is that they are not working. Besides that, we know from The Economist for 26 August 2006 that Britain is unusually well-endowed with low-skilled young people compared with other European countries: 
http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7843638

Of course, that isn&#039;t too surprising because of this:

&quot;Last year [2004], a report from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) revealed that Britain came seventh from bottom in a league table of staying-on rates for 19 countries. Only Mexico and Turkey had significantly lower rates of participation for this age group. Italy, New Zealand, Portugal and Slovakia have marginally lower rates.&quot;
http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcses/story/0,16086,1555547,00.html

And this:

&quot;Only half of those on apprenticeships in England finish them, the chief inspector of adult education has found. 
Although standards of training had improved dramatically overall, David Sherlock said low apprenticeship completion rates were &#039;unacceptable&#039;.&quot;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6169843.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really don&#8217;t understand what dsquared is on about.</p>
<p>As Tony Blair said back in 2005, &#8220;More than one million people on incapacity benefit wanted to work.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224721.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4224721.stm</a></p>
<p>The problem is that they are not working. Besides that, we know from The Economist for 26 August 2006 that Britain is unusually well-endowed with low-skilled young people compared with other European countries:<br />
<a href="http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7843638">http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7843638</a></p>
<p>Of course, that isn&#8217;t too surprising because of this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Last year [2004], a report from the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) revealed that Britain came seventh from bottom in a league table of staying-on rates for 19 countries. Only Mexico and Turkey had significantly lower rates of participation for this age group. Italy, New Zealand, Portugal and Slovakia have marginally lower rates.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcses/story/0,16086,1555547,00.html">http://education.guardian.co.uk/gcses/story/0,16086,1555547,00.html</a></p>
<p>And this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Only half of those on apprenticeships in England finish them, the chief inspector of adult education has found.<br />
Although standards of training had improved dramatically overall, David Sherlock said low apprenticeship completion rates were &#8216;unacceptable&#8217;.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6169843.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6169843.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33999</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 17:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33999</guid>
		<description>Ah, apologies for that. Must have been distracted. Or lazy. Anyway, my doubt in (1) was about the suggestion that people enjoy their jobs.

On (2) you may be right, but it strikes me as a differenent argument to the one that was previously put. It&#039;s what they pay you for, sure: but that&#039;s a very different thing to it being truly what you&#039;re good at and what develops you as a person. Is that &quot;crushing&quot;? Dunno. Stunting perhaps.

On (3) it&#039;s true to say that capitalism tends to find progressively more complex and potentially-fulfuilling work for us to do as the machines get on with (much of) the boring stuff, but it does then tend to spoil it by trying to deindividualise and mechanise it. There are all sorts of ways to view this process but personally I think it shows us our potential and then denies it.

On (4) I don&#039;t think it&#039;s just the bastards or the absence of control, true though both are, but it&#039;s also the work itself. There &lt;i&gt;is&lt;/i&gt; an interesting question that can be asked in response, to the effect that &quot;if this is alienated labour, what would unalienated labour look like (Marx&#039;s own answer to this is notoriously sketchy) and do you really think most of us would be able and allowed to do it?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, apologies for that. Must have been distracted. Or lazy. Anyway, my doubt in (1) was about the suggestion that people enjoy their jobs.</p>
<p>On (2) you may be right, but it strikes me as a differenent argument to the one that was previously put. It&#8217;s what they pay you for, sure: but that&#8217;s a very different thing to it being truly what you&#8217;re good at and what develops you as a person. Is that &#8220;crushing&#8221;? Dunno. Stunting perhaps.</p>
<p>On (3) it&#8217;s true to say that capitalism tends to find progressively more complex and potentially-fulfuilling work for us to do as the machines get on with (much of) the boring stuff, but it does then tend to spoil it by trying to deindividualise and mechanise it. There are all sorts of ways to view this process but personally I think it shows us our potential and then denies it.</p>
<p>On (4) I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s just the bastards or the absence of control, true though both are, but it&#8217;s also the work itself. There <i>is</i> an interesting question that can be asked in response, to the effect that &#8220;if this is alienated labour, what would unalienated labour look like (Marx&#8217;s own answer to this is notoriously sketchy) and do you really think most of us would be able and allowed to do it?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33995</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:31:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33995</guid>
		<description>Sure; bad jobs exist and more bad jobs can always be created. Extra bad jobs came into existence today, quite possibly. The objectionable thing about Chris&#039;s argument was his claim that bad jobs are &lt;i&gt;necessary&lt;/i&gt; and - by implication - comprehensive reform of our system of rights is needed. I&#039;m as uneasy as anyone about the political changes of the last twenty years or so. Because they&#039;re unnecessary. &lt;i&gt;It was working.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure; bad jobs exist and more bad jobs can always be created. Extra bad jobs came into existence today, quite possibly. The objectionable thing about Chris&#8217;s argument was his claim that bad jobs are <i>necessary</i> and &#8211; by implication &#8211; comprehensive reform of our system of rights is needed. I&#8217;m as uneasy as anyone about the political changes of the last twenty years or so. Because they&#8217;re unnecessary. <i>It was working.</i></p>
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		<title>By: Igor Belanov</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33993</link>
		<dc:creator>Igor Belanov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:03:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33993</guid>
		<description>I think Andre Gorz&#039;s &#039;Farewell to the Working Classes&#039; has already refuted much of Dsquared&#039;s argument. Service jobs are often just as monotonous, often less skilled, and often more demeaning than the jobs they have replaced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Andre Gorz&#8217;s &#8216;Farewell to the Working Classes&#8217; has already refuted much of Dsquared&#8217;s argument. Service jobs are often just as monotonous, often less skilled, and often more demeaning than the jobs they have replaced.</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33991</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 14:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33991</guid>
		<description>I think Justin&#039;s 1) might have been eaten by a tag but ...

on 2) I agree with Charlie&#039;s discussion of the same issue; work is pretty much definitionally what they pay you to do, but I don&#039;t agree that this is crushing to the soul or whatever.

on 3), I think it&#039;s pretty well established that Taylorisation is a step on the way to automation - the tendency of the economy is to simplify a task in order to remove the worker, and thus to move workers into the jobs that can&#039;t be simplified.  I don&#039;t think anybody&#039;s arguing that this is the state of affairs right now, but that&#039;s the direction of progress.

on 4) I think I am on reasonably orthodox grounds in saying that the main bad thing about work is either a) not having control of your time or b) the actions of specific bastards who, it is sad to say, would probably exist and be doing just as much harm under most other economic structures.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Justin&#8217;s 1) might have been eaten by a tag but &#8230;</p>
<p>on 2) I agree with Charlie&#8217;s discussion of the same issue; work is pretty much definitionally what they pay you to do, but I don&#8217;t agree that this is crushing to the soul or whatever.</p>
<p>on 3), I think it&#8217;s pretty well established that Taylorisation is a step on the way to automation &#8211; the tendency of the economy is to simplify a task in order to remove the worker, and thus to move workers into the jobs that can&#8217;t be simplified.  I don&#8217;t think anybody&#8217;s arguing that this is the state of affairs right now, but that&#8217;s the direction of progress.</p>
<p>on 4) I think I am on reasonably orthodox grounds in saying that the main bad thing about work is either a) not having control of your time or b) the actions of specific bastards who, it is sad to say, would probably exist and be doing just as much harm under most other economic structures.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33987</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 12:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33987</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I moved it. It&#039;s now &lt;a href=&quot;http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/life/the-grinch-who-stole-talent&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I moved it. It&#8217;s now <a href="http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/life/the-grinch-who-stole-talent">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: ejh</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33984</link>
		<dc:creator>ejh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33984</guid>
		<description>I want to take potential issue with dsquared.

First, is there any reason to think this?

&lt;i&gt;

Maybe there&#039;s survey evidence and I&#039;m happy to see it if there is, but the evidence of hearing people talk about their jobs doesn&#039;t &lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;immediately&lt;/i&gt; back this up.

Second, is this true?:

&lt;i&gt;If someone&#039;s really good at talking and they spend all day in a sales job, that&#039;s them using their talent&lt;/i&gt;

Isn&#039;t the point about having a skill not just that you use it, but how you use it and how you develop it? If you have a capacity to write, you don&#039;t &lt;i&gt;just&lt;/i&gt; write, it matters &lt;i&gt;what&lt;/i&gt; you write and whether your skill at writing is developed, adds to the lives of other people, gives &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; the satsifaction that it might and so on.

Third, is not the point about mechanisation under capitalism that it seeks, more often than not, to try and &lt;i&gt;reproduce processes mechanically&lt;/i&gt;, to make them less individual, to find out how they are done and devise processes that will do them over and again?

Four, so far from being &quot;patronising&quot; to the working class, isn&#039;t it a very, very commonly heard sentiment about work that &quot;it does my head in&quot;? That people &lt;i&gt;do&lt;/i&gt; find that it does not develop them and does not test them other than physically?

All these points can be challenged with good examples and need to be qualified to some degree, but I wonder whether dsquared takes them into account to the extent that he might.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to take potential issue with dsquared.</p>
<p>First, is there any reason to think this?</p>
<p><i></p>
<p>Maybe there&#8217;s survey evidence and I&#8217;m happy to see it if there is, but the evidence of hearing people talk about their jobs doesn&#8217;t </i><i>immediately</i> back this up.</p>
<p>Second, is this true?:</p>
<p><i>If someone&#8217;s really good at talking and they spend all day in a sales job, that&#8217;s them using their talent</i></p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t the point about having a skill not just that you use it, but how you use it and how you develop it? If you have a capacity to write, you don&#8217;t <i>just</i> write, it matters <i>what</i> you write and whether your skill at writing is developed, adds to the lives of other people, gives <i>you</i> the satsifaction that it might and so on.</p>
<p>Third, is not the point about mechanisation under capitalism that it seeks, more often than not, to try and <i>reproduce processes mechanically</i>, to make them less individual, to find out how they are done and devise processes that will do them over and again?</p>
<p>Four, so far from being &#8220;patronising&#8221; to the working class, isn&#8217;t it a very, very commonly heard sentiment about work that &#8220;it does my head in&#8221;? That people <i>do</i> find that it does not develop them and does not test them other than physically?</p>
<p>All these points can be challenged with good examples and need to be qualified to some degree, but I wonder whether dsquared takes them into account to the extent that he might.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie</title>
		<link>http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/comment-page-1/#comment-33983</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 11:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.chickyog.net/2007/09/25/ignorance-really-is-bliss/#comment-33983</guid>
		<description>Something a bit more detailed on this from me &lt;a href=&quot;http://fistfulofeuros.net/afem/political-issues/the-grinch-who-stole-talent&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something a bit more detailed on this from me <a href="http://fistfulofeuros.net/afem/political-issues/the-grinch-who-stole-talent">here</a>.</p>
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