Yes, we’re all individuals
When I linked to Chris Morris’ appeal to raise cash for his new film, BenSix said he suspected it was trap.
I’m tempted to think the same when I see non-believers queuing up to throw cash to pay for posters on the sides of London buses. I worry the whole campaign has been orchestrated by Christian fundamentalist provocateurs who want to show that atheists are also an ovine collective who want to ram their ideology down people’s throats. (And what’s with that sodding ‘probably’? Are you atheist or not?)
We’re not a bloody club for chemical chance’s sake. If that’s what you want as an atheist why not go back to church for the weak tea, digestive biscuits and small talk, and treat the rest of it like a poetry club or something?
You advance atheism by breeding it out – use it as a Dawkinsite meme and give it to your kids. Who are these posters supposed to persuade anyway? Is this a missionary initiative? How many converts are we expecting? Are we in for a spate of believers, upon glanicing at a passing bus, suddenly slapping their foreheads and declaring, ‘Of course! I’ve been wasting my weekends all these years!’?
I humbly suggest not.
Posted on October 22nd, 2008 at 5:40pm under Religion and theology
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• 23 Comments |
I believe it (like Dawkins’ work) is intended not so much to make converts as to shore up & give encouragement to the core vote.
People who do not have religious beliefs but cringingly submit to those who do, showing the demanded “respect”, will be emboldened to stand up the next time the usual claims are made.
There are lots of people who go through life without belief but don’t have a fully-fledged philosophy of their own & are left rather unsure of themselves by the relentless focus on religion. They are the constituency for this, which is why I will be supporting it.
Surely ‘unsure’ atheists are agnostics and therefore not invited to this gig?
Sorry, what I mean is that they’ve never really considered their lack of faith, & don’t know how to speak up for a naturalistic worldview, whying away from controversy instinctively.
Then there are the ones who know they are atheists, but feel they have to put on a front. They are the people who, especially in The God Delusion, are reassured that they’re not alone & can join a group of like-minded people.
This campaign will raise consciousness among them & convince them they’re not alone.
Having said all that, maybe the “probably” was aimed at agnostics? They must have had something in mind when they chose that specific phrase.
Agnosticism simply means that your beliefs are provisional – therefore agnostics can be atheists or theists. I cannot say for certain whether there is a god or not, so I am an agnostic (without knowledge). But the chances of one existing strikes me as incredibly unlikely, so I am an atheist (without religious beliefs).
Dawkins appears to be the same. On a scale of 1 to 7 (1 being certain belief, 7 being certain disbelief), Dawkins describes himself as a 6 – pretty sure there is no god, but not absolutely certain.
This is pretty much the only credible atheistic position to hold – as how can such limited creatures as ourselves be certain about anything?
The only agnostics not invited to the party are those who who see themselves as morally and/or intellectually superior for claiming not to have an opinion, while clearly leaning either towards theism or atheism.
The “probably” is there because without it the bus company (or, rather, the people who handle their ads) wouldn’t have run the campaign. They have rules about ads not offending religious people. Which is kind of ironic given the bizarre claims that religious ads make without a shred of evidence.
Although it’s not an accurate representation of the atheist viewpoint, I’ve grown quite attached to the “probably”. I think it’s a nice counterpoint to the fire and brimstone certainties of the god-squad.
Is this a missionary initiative?
No. That would presumably involve being face to face with religion and taking it lying down.
“You advance atheism by breeding it out”
Hmm. That’s not good news from the atheist perspective then. But have faith.
http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/2006/10/breeding-for-god_19.html
” The share of the world’s population that is religious is growing, after nearly a century of modest decline. This effect has been produced by the younger generations in the developing world rejecting secularisation, combined with higher religious fertility levels. Throughout the world, the religious tend to have more children, irrespective of age, education or wealth. “Secular” Europe is no exception. In an analysis of European data from ten west European countries in the period 1981-2004 I found that next to age and marital status, a woman’s religiosity was the strongest predictor of her number of offspring. Many other studies have found a similar relationship, and a whole school of thought in demography—”second demographic transition theory”—suggests that fertility differences in developed countries are underpinned by value differences, with secular men and women unwilling to sacrifice career and lifestyle aspirations to have children and have them early. ”
The fastest growing demographic in Britain are Muslims, with fertility levels between two and three times those of the natives.
I look forward to reading about the fate of a number 25 or a 254 bearing one of Mr Dorkins adverts, making its way through the East End on a busy Friday afternoon. I just hope no passengers are hurt.
If 1200 men couldn’t hold a defensive position this morning, what chance have we with 100?
It’s depressing how many people choose to take the same intolerant line as this blog posting. What exactly is wrong with the campaign? All it is, in advertising for a point of view. You make a case several times a day via a blog. That’s perfectly all right – so why should not other people make a case using bus posters?
When you write on here, are you ramming ideology down people’s throats? No. So why does putting up a postermean that people are doing the same? You see several hundred posters and adverts on any given day. This would just be one of them? That’s not actually any sort of imposition at all, is it? “Down people’s throats”, indeed.
As for this:
(And what’s with that sodding ‘probably’? Are you atheist or not?)
Well, they can’t win, can they? If they say they’re certain, they’re dogmatic. It they say “probably”, that’s wrong too.
And this: I worry the whole campaign has been orchestrated by Christian fundamentalist provocateurs
Really, the more I read of this sort of thing, the more inclined I am to support this campaign. If it’s not precisely the way you’d like your atheism to be, so what.
Well, my main objection is that along with the piss-poor use of language and the intellectual vapidity in the campaign itself, it makes atheists look live a hive-mind of self-satisfied happy-clapping cocks. Oh, isn’t it so clever! Isn’t simply marvellous! Let’s all hug ourselves while we piss our money up the wall on a supremely empty gesture. Why not instead raise money to make inroads on a City Academy or something?
It’s the lack of uncertainty that I find most insulting – these chumps haven’t even got the balls to come right out say it. No doubt they’re afraid of offending someone or other. They don’t even have the same courage of their convictions as the fire and brimstone crowd they say they’re taking on. The more I read of this sort of thing, the more inclined I am to find another way to describe myself. In this instance, ‘atheism’ looks like an over-earnest youth club where gesture politics and in-crowdism are the defining characteristics.
Well, my main objection is that along with the piss-poor use of language and the intellectual vapidity in the campaign itself, it makes atheists look live a hive-mind of self-satisfied happy-clapping cocks. Oh, isn’t it so clever! Isn’t simply marvellous! Let’s all hug ourselves while we piss our money up the wall on a supremely empty gesture.
This is nonsense. It doesn’t do or say any of these things. It’s a poster campaign. It’ a profile-rasing thing, just as in the case with any advertising, which seeks to remind the potential audience of the existence of the product: without seeking to make every poster a full statement of the intellectual case for a position and refutation of its opponents. Because these things are also available, easily available, elsewhere. But you know this.
And who knows, if it does increase the profile of atheism, then this…
Why not instead raise money to make inroads on a City Academy or something?
…might be easier in the future. High profile, more donors. But you know this.
And this:
It’s the lack of uncertainty that I find most insulting – these chumps haven’t even got the balls to come right out say it.
Can I refer you to my prvious posting? If atheists express certainty, they get accused of dogmatic certainty, just like those religious people they seek to criticise.
But you know this.
The potential audience?
Never mind the “probably”, what about “enjoy your life”? As imperatives go, that’s real dynamite, that is. Go shopping, have a facial, eat some pies…
What about “now go and overthrow the neo-liberal hegemony”? Or maybe “strive for excellence in all that you do” at least? John Stuart Mill would not have been pleased.
I don’t know about you all, but I’m just glad for a little redress of the balance after seeing sodding Alpha Course posters (yes, that’s the homophobic fundagelical training course) everywhere, not to mention the horrific sight of a full-page rant that somehow wangled its way into the New Statesman, of all places, courtesy of far-fringe Christian extremists, Christian Voice. In which they blamed teenage knife crime on the sad lack of lunatic theocracy dominating our lives.
Compared to that, this is a gentle message. It’s harmless. No, it probably won’t have an effect on anything that matters. Yes, it is poorly worded, and no, I don’t think we really need symbols or adverts or conventions. But am I glad someone’s standing up and making their voice heard instead of just sitting in the background and letting the religious interests, – who both have a voice and the will to use it – dominate the social and political discourse of the present day? Oh hell yes.
I do take issue, also, with the implication that forcing your kids to think your way is somehow better than a consciousness-raising poster campaign (no matter how cack-handed).
If the alternative is more faith schools, more religious segregation and faith-based sectarian politics, fear and misanthropy caused by the ‘I’m deeply offended’ syndrome, and the idea that politicians in particular don’t have to think about those of shaky / personal / no faith, then, yeah I’m proud to be a vociferous atheist.
(And after all, there’s the very salient point underpinning this all: there really ain’tn’t not no God).
Peace.
I do take issue, also, with the implication that forcing your kids to think your way is somehow better than a consciousness-raising poster campaign (no matter how cack-handed).
Yes, I probably should have been a bit clearer about that. I’m not suggesting any kind of educational programme. I don’t know about other parents but I haven’t done much ‘forcing’ of atheism on my own two. Their atheist upbringing largely consists of getting to have a lie in on a Sunday morning and a little light deprogramming whenever issue arises at school.
Same as me, then. I went to a CofE school, but I think the Anglican Church is probably the greatest force for inoculation against religion the world has ever known.
Thanks for the clarification!
Sorry, but I think the Catholic Church is probably the greatest force for inoculation against religion the world has ever known. Don’t make me go all crusader-y on your heretic arse.
I’m sure there’s room for a ‘Yorkshiremen’ argument in this somewhere.
Since I don’t have kids, the option of breeding it out is not open to me. So the option of a teeny-tiny redress in the opposite direction to the constant propoganda from the religious front seemed like welcome relief. Sorry about that.
When I linked to Chris Morris’ appeal to raise cash for his new film, BenSix said he suspected it was trap.
I’ll probably give them £25 anyway, I’m that sad a Day Today/Brass Eye fanboy.
Ben
You’re such a grumpy naysayer Justin, everything is a fucking whinge man, fairplay to you but you contradict yourself in your moan-post, you call it ramming ideology down people’s throats and then you diss the probably and we all know that you can’t say with 100% certainty there is no god. As a Dawkins reader you should know that.
It’s a gesture isn’t it? It’s doing something isn’t it? It’s not having a fucking moan and doing nowt.
Peace out mardy arse.
I like having a fucking moan and doing nowt. It made me the man I am today.
What next? Adverts on the bus saying “Father Christmas probably doesn’t exist” or “the Easter bunny is probably an imaginary character”? This is cruel. Some people need their imaginary friends…